Pop Culture is a bizarre phenomenon - part science, part art, part WTF?!People & fads come and go, and popular is usually in the eye of the beholder - or whoever is choosing the latest cover for US Weekly. I've always had a strange fascination with the deeper movements in, around, and behind Pop Culture: the metaphysics of Pop Culture, if you will.
It all started with a simple enough question: Do the characters on Friends watch Seinfeld?
Back when NBC had something called "Must-See TV" (yes, this is the same network that would now settle for Well-there's-nothing-else-on-and-I'm-home-alone-so-I-might-as-well-see TV), it was dominated by three shows - Friends, Seinfeld, and ER. For a brief few years, I watched all three religiously and in order, and thus was struck one night by the following query: does Seinfeld exist in the Friends universe?
Now, I realize that Friends existed in a complete world of fiction (never more than 4 of the 6 main characters held down full-time jobs at once, and yet they managed to all inhabit West Village apartments. Uh-huh.), but elements of fact did enter into the show. The characters gathered around to watch the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade (very real), wore NY Giants sportswear, and several very real-life people appeared on the show as themselves; who can forget Jill Connick (nee Goodacre) in the ATM vestibule or Jean-Claude Van Damme filming Outbreak 2 with Marcel the Monkey?
But what are the limits of this Manhattan-based confluence of real and imaginary? At what point does the cast of Friends move from interacting with the world of culture - food, clothes, celebrities - to interacting with the contemporary world of Pop Culture? Again, it comes down to one question: can the Friends watch Seinfeld?
Two things to consider:
1) This is only one iteration of this theory. Another example: do TV's X-Men know there are movies about them?
2) Concrete evidence seems to answer my question in the negative. George Clooney and Noah Wyle, when they were stars of NBC's mega-hit ER, appeared (apologies for the video quality and for, you know, the German) on Friends as generic, New York City doctors - and not as Dr. Ross and Dr. Carter, respectively. So, Seinfeld may exist in the Friends universe, but apparently Must-See pal ER did not.
Thoughts? Should I consult Einstein- or someone smarter?
I love the idea of "Breaking the 4th Wall" and have had many discussions on the different levels and capabilities. I even remember being intrigued by The Never Ending Story as a child because the reader was a character in the story he was reading. I also liked Stranger Than Fiction and Stephen King included himself and characters from other books in his opus, The Dark Tower Series.
ReplyDeleteAs for Friends and Seinfeld, there are three metaphysical possibilities to consider. One, as you suggest, the Friends watch Seinfeld on TV, and they know Jason Alexander looks like the guy from Princess Bride. Two, the Friends can't watch Seinfeld on TV, but they can go see his stand-up shows. That is, the worlds are the same and since New York is so big, they simply never run into each other. In this vein, Jerry could stop at Central Perk and be served by Phoebe, or George Costanza could meet Joey Tribbiani at Yankees Stadium as a celebrity throwing out the first pitch. Three, neither exists in any capacity in the other universe.
I love the idea of the Friends going to see a Seinfeld stand-up show, and would think a world where Jerry Seinfeld the person (but not Seinfeld the show) is the most plausible (if I can say that) of your 3 scenarios, much like how Jill Goodacre & JCVD exist as real people in the Friends universe.
ReplyDeleteI mentioned an NBC element that throws cold water all over my theory, but the flip side of that coin is the not-so-recent trend of TV series cross-overs. I think CSI is the most frequent repeat offender, with characters from other CSIs (NY, in the most recent example, if I'm not mistaken) spending several episodes in Las Vegas with the original CSI folk. So, in CSI world, all the other CSIs not only exist, but interact with each other on a regular basis.
Wow this post is getting DEEP. First of all I love that I immediately recognized that photo of the Friends from (I believe) their game show for the apartment, where the stumping question is "What is Chandler Bing's job?" Amazing episode.
ReplyDeleteI think the Friends DO watch Seinfeld on TV and see him in standup, but Seinfeld does not have Friends on his cable lineup. I think you touch upon an issue with Seinfeld - it has its own metaphysical problems to work out. I mean, Seinfeld is a standup comedian in that universe, just like real life, but has no TV show and Larry David is played by an actor. Wtf is going on there?
JCVD filming Outbreak 2 with Marcel is what puts it over the top in my opinion. You don't bring in JCVD unless it's the real world... it doesn't get more real than JCVD. Except for Chuck Norris?
Aaron I love the tradition of breaking the 4th wall. I think Stephen King's Dark Tower series is unbelievably good in this regard and I imagine it will be the subject of some literature study before it's all said and done. I'd love to discuss it further but I'll just geek out and scare everyone. One of the great examples? The final scene of Shakespeare's Tempest.
Royce: right episode, wrong moment. Ross has just flipped the coin to see which team goes first. They're all looking at him, and he says deadpan, "OK, this time somebody CALL it" Best episode ever.
ReplyDeleteSo, Royce sheds some light on what might be the first case of a metaphysical breakdown on TV (Seinfeld). But there is a far more serious case in our current midst: Glee. Bear with me...
In the world of Glee, the Broadway show Wicked very much exists - the sing songs from the show, and character Kurt says it is his favorite show and he has a playlist for it on his iPod. BUT...not 3 episodes ago, original Wicked cast member Kristen Chenowith appeared on the show - as a fictional character! Sure, stretching the limits of plausibility, Kristen could be leading a double life, but wouldn't Kurt have recognized one of the 2 main characters from his favorite Broadway show? So, Wicked does exist in the Glee universe - but it apparently exists without star Kristen Chenowith.
As the Oracle might say, this one really cooked my noodle.
Wow the case of Glee is astounding. Their fictional universe is threatening to rip apart at the metaphysical seems for this transgression.
ReplyDeleteKristen Chenoweth is bomb by the way. Her turn on West Wing as the mentor for Press Secretary Toby made my heart smile.
Royce, I'm ready to discuss The Dark Tower Series beyond ad nauseum, and I touched on it a little in our Stephen King discussion, but I would start with its multiple levels of greatness. Great for first time readers and long time King fans. Each book can stand alone, but as a series they get better and better. It's difficulty classifying the genre. Is Stephen King writing fantasy? It contains a lot of urban New York from the last 50 years. It could be a western or a family drama or a tragedy?
ReplyDeleteWait, Mik did you mean the Oracle of Omaha? Or some other Oracle and not Warren Buffett?
ReplyDeleteAaron Stephen King's On Writing is in my reading queue believe it or not. My queue is substantial and likely will be third on my list.
I disagree that the Dark Tower series gets better and better in one sense - I think the first book was by far the most evocative and atmospheric of the seven. It stands apart in style and in content; I imagine this is in large part because it was written much earlier than the others. It stoked my imagination most amongst the Dark Tower books.
I love the genre-bending, the mixing in of real life, the 4th wall breaking, and the inclusion of all the characters and references from other works in the Stephen King Universe. I was in New York not long ago and realized with a start that I was standing next to - you guessed it - Hammarskjold Plaza. It was weird cause I only knew of it through the Dark Tower books. Art was informing life as I stood there staring at it with wonder.
Most interestingly are the ways King imagines his own brush with death through the lens of his fictional universe. The characters in the Dark Tower are acutely aware that they rely on King and his imagination for their existence, and yet their world is his world as well. So in their quest to save it they must ensure they save him, if that makes any sense. King was hit by a car near his Maine home, nearly killing him, and this incident is hauntingly addressed by the characters working to save his life. Indeed, he imagines it's his fictional characters which save him - perhaps a metaphor for the way in which his vocation helped him pull through the ordeal. If this isn't a mind-blowing amalgamation of work and art I don't know what is.
That was a horribly written post, I'm sorry. "Most interestingly are the ways in which King imagines" is one of the most horrific phrases ever constructed in the English language. You are all dumber for having read that. I am awarded no points and may God have mercy on my soul.
ReplyDeleteAt least you recognized your transgression and chastised yourself accordingly. Job well done.
ReplyDeleteI actually was referencing the Oracle from the Matrix. Oh well, allusion missed on that one.
I did not mean the Dark Tower series gets better chronologically, rather as a whole, the series is greater than the sum of its parts. In fact, I argue that the more you know about Stephen King and his works, the greater the Dark Tower series is. When King was actually hit while walking along the road in Maine, most of the comparisons were to Misery, featuring a popular fiction writer who suffers a car accident. Knowing about his actual accident adds another layer to the onion that is Stephen King.
ReplyDeleteJesus, I cringe every time I re-read my long Dark Tower metaphysics post. I could not have done a worse job putting my thoughts together. Aaron, did my rambling even make sense to someone who read the books?
ReplyDeleteand Mik, I got the Oracle from the Matrix...don't worry...Royce is off his game today...
ReplyDeletebut Royce, you're not off as much as you think. You are trying to edit 1,000 words into 327 and you lose a little in your own translation. Having never been to New York, I was glad to learn that Hammerskjold Plaza is a real place. Although the quality of the last paragraph in your Comment in question decreases dramatically.
Your attempt to console me only made me feel worse. Were you as blown away by the whole "Stephen King's Dark Tower characters are saving his life because they know they are products of his imagination, and he hasn't finished the series yet in this story, and they know they need him alive to imagine the completion of their quest" infinite logic loop as I was? He spoke in his Dark Tower foreword about how the series wrote itself, and King felt he was just channeling a story that cried out to be told. You can almost sense his trepidation at telling the Gunslinger's tale when he writes of his fictional-real life encounter with the man.
ReplyDeleteI also want to circle back around to Friends. The show kind of explains the unemployed characters being able to afford rent by saying how rich Rachel's family us, allowing her to coast in her barista days, and the way Joey puts together cash from some of his acting jobs to keep his end of the rent afloat.
ReplyDeleteI also think the show is self-referential enough where the characters could totally run into Jerry Seinfeld on the street and have it play out like a mini-episode of Seinfeld. Remember that the gameshow pictured above has self-referential moments like nobody knowing what Chandler's job is. There is also a fantastic moment at the start of one show where they walk into Central Perk and a group of people are sitting on their trademark couch area - so the Friends just shrug and leave.
I love the phrase, "infinite logic loop" and it is very appropriate. I was actually shocked (SPOILER ALERT!!!!!) when you see the newspaper headline of Stephen King's death at the end of book 6. Because they had talked about how you can't go backwards in the world that counts.
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I really enjoyed King's ability to describe himself coming face to face with his own creation. I tried to imagine what Tabitha King felt when she read it for the first time. Does she think her husband is insane or schizophrenic? Does she ask him if he really saw Roland, but forgot it? I came to care about King's (the character?) emotions even more than Roland's (or Roland's lack of emotions). I liked that he was scared of failure, or scared that he wasn't good enough. Partly because on occasion I have felt that fear of failing to live up to my own expectations for myself.
And I loved the ending, because it was truly unique. I honestly cannot think of any ending of any story that has the cojones to do what Stephen King does. He adds a warning not to read the ending. It reminds me of Futurama, "You watched it! You can't unwatch it!"
I'm not super familiar with all of King's other work - was the artist guy at the end a character from another novel of his? Or was he a deus ex machina character King invented for the purpose? Either way I liked the way art triumphed over the twisted imaginations at the end, mirroring King's stated confrontation of his fears which you refer to. A metaphor for the author completing his storytelling journey as well. There are a lot of ways you can read the ending and the tale as a whole, which is one reason I loved it so much.
ReplyDeleteI love your questions about how Tabitha King reacted to the book. I wonder that too. I think it's very clear that a lot of what King writes about himself comes after the fact - he has by this time conquered many of his demons (his alcoholism, his car accident, his fear of failing at writing) and many of those demons spanned the length of when he began the Dark Tower series to when he completed it. Therefore the book is in many ways a reflection of his past struggles. I guess that's one reason he considers it his magnum opus.
Taken in that context, and given the series' metaphysical implications, I think the Dark Tower is one of the more interesting meditations on an artists' connection to writing and his connection with his own imagination that I have ever read. Especially when you consider that the whole series is written in the form of entertaining novels.
I think the artist is and is not a Deus Ex-Machina. He is a character along Roland's quest that helps him much like Father Callahan or a magical door on the beach that leads him to a modern world and pharmacy with drugs that can cure his infection. I guess I'd say that if the Artist is a Deus Ex-Machina, then pretty much the entire series is...so I guess nothing in the stories qualifies.
ReplyDeleteI think the artist is supposed to be there and probably represents the writer's ability to do whatever the hell he wants. Or that the writer has the ability to strip away all the power and effectiveness of his demons, but never really leaves and is always there.
PS. I loved coming back to this discussion after a year.
Wait, what prompted you to come back to this?
ReplyDeleteGood point about the rest of the series having a similar element of King inserting random solutions. There's a concept there that I can't quite grasp... the randomness of his imagination... the interwoven nature of stories... the non-linearity of writing... don't quite know...
So what do you make of the ending in which, although the book ends on a cyclical note, there's the hint that things have changed? That Roland might finally be close the end? Is the tale linear after all? Is King saying he has more story left in him?
I say that the ending is designed to say that King doesn't feel his stories ever actually end. I think that's it's just an ongoing process, but it's always changing just a little bit. I do stand by my statement that King showed some serious cojones to end it that way. I honestly can't think of any other writer who would ever end a seven book series that way.
ReplyDeleteAnd I came back to this because Scott linked to it...and I had fond memories of loving every part of this discussion.
Also, we're just about a year since the last comment...felt like a good anniversary.
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